Introduction & Welcome
Christy: Welcome to Everything Is Conversation. We are here because the quality of our conversations is the quality of our work, our relationships, our lives, and that’s really worth paying attention to. In each episode, we’ll be talking with a lot of amazing, marvelous people, the conversations that shape their decisions, their relationships, and the outcomes.
Christy: No scripts, no theory, just real-life conversations that we can learn from. I am so excited about this. and I’m one of the hosts, Christy Davis. And with me is my partner for the podcast, Lim Kim Pong. Kim Pong, how are you doing today?
Meet the Hosts
Kim Pong: I am doing really well, Christy. I’m based in Singapore, and it’s a beautiful morning, and I, I’m just really excited that we are doing this together, Christy.
Kim Pong: Everything is Conversation, this podcast, if you remember, this whole idea was- Mm … birthed when you were in Singapore and we were having coffee at this amazing coffee place. Everybody, a shout-out to Atlas Coffee.
Christy: Atlas.
Kim Pong: Um-
Christy: Oh my
Kim Pong: gosh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean,
Christy: I think, seems like a long time ago, but couple y- I don’t know, a year, two years?
Christy: But-
Kim Pong: at least a year ago. I remember that when I was having my cortados and you were having your Americano, and we had this conversation, “Hey, what about a podcast- Yeah …
Christy: I just love that place. Actually, I- Recently , I read something and it, it really struck me, and it’s, maybe it’s why I’m so interested in having these conversations and doing this podcast, and that is because I may not exactly remember what you said or what our guest said, but I often will remember how I, I felt.
Christy: Yeah. And I’ll remember, the feeling of the interaction with someone. And so- Yeah … I may not remember that specific conversation exactly, that first one, that we had talking about this at Atlas and drink- over coffee, but I remember leaving feeling energized and excited and affirmed and heard, and the joy of just sitting and having a, a lovely conversation with someone that I loved spending time with.
Christy: You know what the old movie line is, Jerry Maguire, “You had me at hello.” You had me at the Americano .
Christy: What about you,
Kim Pong: Kim Pong?
Christy: Why are you doing this?
Why We’re Doing This Podcast
Kim Pong: oh, gosh, you know, for me, I think this podcast gives us a platform to talk about something that is the most unexamined behavior-
Kim Pong: in human interaction, and that is conversations.
Christy: Yeah.
Kim Pong: I want this podcast to be able to bring people from all different walks of life to be able to talk about this fundamental human thing, which is conversation.
Christy: Yeah.
Kim Pong: It’s probably the most unexamined thing in the world, and I’m fascinated simply because conversations are messy.
Kim Pong: talk can be curious, they can be incurious. They can be hospitable, they can be not. They can be transactional, they can be connecting. Mm. There’s so many facets about conversations I’m really, excited about. And when I am thinking about this, this podcast here, I’m like, “Gosh, I wanna start this.
Kim Pong: I wanna do this.” But deep down, I got so much imposter syndromes, that, that says, “My g- who are you, Kim Pong?” Uh-huh. To run a podcast and to launch it on all the platforms in the world, and who would listen to you ? And then when I ask you, Christy, I say, “Hey, would you join me in this podcast?”
Kim Pong: I’ll be honest, I half hoped that you would say no- Mm … so that I’m off the hook, because I didn’t want to get into this on my own. But when you said yes, I go like, darn, it’s foot on the pedal. The car is moving. Yep. And I think for me, my greatest struggle really in, in hosting this podcast is my own imposter syndrome is still there, which is I’m actually terrified- At exposing myself to the world, exposing my stuttering to the world, and I’m terrified of meeting our guests.
Christy: Oh.
Kim Pong: Now, that is the antithesis to a podcast because that’s the purpose of the podcast, right? To meet guests and talk to them, but I’m terrified of them because I’m asking myself, “My gosh, why would they talk to me?”
Christy: Yeah.
Kim Pong: but I will tell you one thing. The more we get into this, the more we are talking to our guests, the more we are reaching out to different corners of the world, there’s this curiosity in me- Uh-huh
Kim Pong: that just bubbles up. It’s like, my gosh, there are things that I thought I knew, but I didn’t. There are things that I’m afraid of, but I realize I’m not so much.
Christy: Yeah.
Kim Pong: And I just realized that this podcast just gave me that platform to be able to, to live that life that is bolder- Yeah
Kim Pong: that’s more curious, that’s more maybe engaging.
Christy: I just, that’s- Yeah, so that’s just where,
Kim Pong: yeah …
Christy: such a lovely, lovely reason to co-host a podcast, and my guess is that a lot of us feel that way too. We just don’t articulate it or voice it, right? So Kim Pong,
The Power of Conversation
Christy: I’m curious, what keeps bringing you back to conversations specifically?
Christy: You could be doing a lot of different things, but you keep coming back to the way people talk. Why are you curious about this?
Kim Pong: Yeah. I spent so much time in the same rooms with leaders and their teams, and one of the things that they do all the time is that they talk all the time. The one thing that I constantly notice is
Kim Pong: how people actually talk. Why is this important to me? Why am I here? I think basically talk is a human superpower, and the problem with- Mm … all of us is not that we lack this ability. The problem is an unexamined ability, and we don’t really explore the idea . Is the talk helping us to grow as, as, as leaders and teams, or is the talk holding us back, or is the talk making us stuck?
Kim Pong: So I think I’m really on a mission to build awareness in how we talk, to help people talk better, so that their lives, relationships, their work can be a whole lot better. What about you,Christy?
Christy: I think for me it’s slightly different. I’ve spent most of my career working across cultures and sectors in a number of different roles, across private sector, public sector, academia, civil society.
Christy: And I’ve done a wide variety of things. Partnership builder, I’ve been a facilitator, I am a facilitator, I’m a lecturer, I’m a consultant on all kinds of different projects.
Kim Pong: Mm-hmm.
Christy: But the thing I keep noticing is how often we actually don’t know how to talk to each other anymore. Hmm. Especially when we disagree, and this is, I think, a worldwide phenomenon.
Christy: So especially when it matters most, we seem to be having trouble coming together in a way that’s constructive and in a way that actually connects us to one another.
Kim Pong: Hmm. I think you’re absolutely spot on, Christy, because I think at the end of the day, it’s a question of, why am I talking? Am I talking to, to transfer information, or is there a different reason?
Kim Pong: And the question I often ask is- what happens when we are talking? What, what’s really happening when we are talking? And now I know I, I promised the, the producers of this show not to treat this as a workshop, but this is really what- … what’s really happening, right? ‘Cause when we are talking, three things, three things are really happening, Christy.
Kim Pong: One, there’s an exchange of information. Yep.
Christy: That’s true.
Kim Pong: Yep. We are sharing information. Okay. The second thing when we are talking is we have a perception of intention. In other words, hey, what is this person trying to do to me? What is this person trying to get me to think about? What, what’s going on here?
Kim Pong: Yeah. The, the perception of intention. Yeah. But there’s a third one that’s really key, which is the judgment of intuition. In other words, how did you just make me feel? How did you just make me-
Christy: Right,
Kim Pong: right … decide on do I like you, do I not like you? Yeah. And actually, if you think about it, a lot of people emphasize on the exchange of information.
Kim Pong: I want to transfer information to you. Yep. Did you hear what I just said? Yep. Where actually the most important thing is actually the second and third one, which is the perception of intention and the judgment of intuition.
Christy: Wait a minute. So wait, wait, I’m gonna interrupt you there. Yeah, yeah. So the judgment of intuition.
Christy: Yeah. What does that mean?
Kim Pong: So for example, if I’m talking to you or I’m talking to somebody, intuitively I’m feeling something. Okay. Intuitively, I might be feeling excited about what you’re doing. I might be feeling a little bit psychologically unsafe about what you’re doing to me. I might be sensing that, “Oh my gosh, why, why are you doing this?
Kim Pong: Why are you saying this? What’s happening here?” And very often in the conversations that we’re involved in, Christy, it, it’s dynamic, it’s messy. Things are going back and forth at such rapid pace that the only thing that we can really base on in figuring out where, how you and I stand together in this conversation [00:09:00] is my intuition.
Kim Pong: After I’ve heard what you said, after I have processed what you have said, intuitively, how do I feel about this?
Christy: You know, it, this is actually a ve- a relatively recent phenomenon for me within the last couple of years, and that I’ve actually started to really think about the power of effective conversation.
Christy: it didn’t occur to me that conversation and my ability to adept, to be savvy with conversation made a big difference in performance or my performance or in somebody, in my boss’s performance. Like, to be honest with you, I look back and I can just see lots of conversations I would prefer to redo.
Christy: I think, “Oh, if I had only known some of these… If I’d only even just been thinking about the power of empathetic listening, and the power of feeling like I had been at least heard, even if the other party wasn’t agreeing with me. If I just had a little bit more understanding on all of that, I feel like I could have had much stronger outcomes in many different occasions.
Christy: Yeah.
Kim Pong: What’s effective for you? When you say a conversation is effective, what does it mean?
Christy: Yeah, that’s actually a really good question. So I think
What Makes a Conversation Effective
Christy: an effective, a really great conversation, an effective conversation for me is one where I feel heard.
Kim Pong: Hmm.
Christy: So you know how sometimes you’re talking to somebody, and you can see that they’re actually not really interested in listening to you, hearing what you have to say.
Christy: They’re already formulating what their response is to what, y- whatever it is that the conver- whatever I’ve said. So I think it’s where I feel heard, where something becomes clearer, where something moves forward. I think it’s about creating connection in some way, and in a helpful way, maybe I should say.
Christy: I think it’s, I think it’s not about saying things perfectly. I think I do get hung up on, we’ve talked about this before, about feeling like we’re an eloquent speaker or not an eloquent speaker. [00:11:00] I think sometimes I don’t feel particularly eloquent or that I’m very articulate, but can I be understood? And I think that’s something that’s been such a valuable experience for me working across multiple countries and multiple contexts where people are working in a second language.
Christy: Mm-hmm. Because we learn to slow down, to not use the fancy words. The key is to be understood and to understand the other person so that we can find a helpful connection together, so that the purpose of the conversation can be known.
Kim Pong: Yeah.
Christy: So what about you, Kim Pong? What’s an effective conversation for you?
Kim Pong: Yeah. I think I struggle with that terminology a little bit because for me, I don’t see effectiveness the way you describe it just now. Hmm. I think effective communication is, is direct, and it’s almost transactional. And I’m very effective in how I’m conveying the information to you or conveying to you what I want to say to you.
Kim Pong: Hmm. And I think that’s probably what’s getting us into where we are today in the world, where people have very little patience with each other. They want to be very effective in how they say what they want to say, and they want to get out. And in today’s world, essentially, there’s no hospitality. There’s no interest in slowing down to explore beyond what we want to transact.
Kim Pong: I know in our previous conversation- Hmm. Hmm … you talked a little bit about hospitality in action in conversations. Hmm. Hmm. So I mean, that, that captured my attention.
Hospitality in Conversation
Kim Pong: I would love to hear a little bit more about that from you. Sh- share a little bit about that. Well,
Christy: actually, just I guess before diving into that, to be honest with you, this is…
Christy: I think this is great that you and I are co-hosting this. Yeah. Because even if we think about what an effective conversation is, my definition of what an effective conversation does not necessarily have anything to do with it being transactional or not. So that fascinates me. So I’m really glad that we do come from markedly different backgrounds with different personal and professional experiences because we’re still arriving at the same point.
Christy: What is happening with the way we talk? How can we talk better? And it’s all about everything is conversation. Then it’s- Mm-hmm … for me, it is how can I connect in a meaningful way with the other person? And so then we come to what you’ve just mentioned, which is hospitality, which is just something that, for me, it’s just something, it’s becoming increasingly important.
Christy: In this day and age when we seem to be so polarized and unable to c- you know, have those meaningful connections, I’m thinking, how can I offer, how can I be hospitable? And I don’t mean throw a dinner party for my neighbors or my great friends. It’s It’s even hospitality at work, and what does that look like?
Christy: So for me, I see conversation as hospitality in action, and I think there’s more and more… I’m really excited actually, perhaps over the course of this podcast, to explore a little bit about this because I think hospitality in conversation and through conversation can illustrate empathy. Mm. So I think it, for me, it strips away the transactional nature of a dialogue, shall we say- Mm
Christy: and actually creates a conversation.
Kim Pong: When you were talking about that, you reminded me of a personal experience back when I was 18 years old. Mm. So in, in Singapore, we are conscripted into the army for two and a half years.
Christy: Yep.
Kim Pong: And in, in one of those years when I was in the army, one of the things that we do a lot is just doing a lot of route marches in, in the islands of Singapore, and there’s this little island called Pulau Tekong in Singapore, and- Mm-hmm
Kim Pong: we’ve been marching through the jungles, and the minute we come out from the jungles, we have to cut through a village, and the villagers would just come out and be offering banana cakes, coconut water- Mm … drinks to, to all of us, and they are, like, shouting out to us, waving to us, saying hi to us. Now, I’m very sure if we go back to Pulau Tekong and we are route marching again and we cross these villages, those hospitality is not gonna be present.
Kim Pong: It’s gonna be gone. So that’s, that’s an era that is missed for me. And the question when you talk about the hospitality of action, the hospitality of conversations, the question- … I have is why is it that this is missing in today’s culture, in today’s workplace conversation? Why aren’t we able to do this?
Kim Pong: Now, I have my own little theory. I’m not sure whether you agree with me. I don’t think we lack the capability for hospitality. I think what has happened is that we have lost the priority for hospitality. we were just talking before we came onto the show that this generation that we are in is possibly the most connected generation because of- Yeah
Kim Pong: technology.
Christy: Yeah.
Kim Pong: The World Health Organization says that- … this generation is probably one of the loneliest generations. Yeah. It reported something like one in six people globally in the world is lonely. So you are really right on the money here. The whole idea of hospitality in a, in conversation is really a big thing.
Kim Pong: And so my question is this: What is keeping us from this priority?
Christy: It’s a million-dollar question, so it’s something I’m thinking a lot about. Is it, are we self-conscious? Are we not just… W- are we forgotten? Because we’re in front of a, a phone or a screen all the time, have we forgotten just how to be together?
Christy: When we think about the word hospitality, normally we don’t equate it with something for our workplace, but it’s how people experience being with us.
Kim Pong: Yeah.
Christy: It, it- I think it’s a really important, timely topic, and it’s a very good question …
Kim Pong: often people will say, “This is just pure business,” right? “This is just pure business.
Kim Pong: There’s nothing personal about it. We just gotta get through this and get this done.” And it’s almost equating to saying that, “I don’t care how you feel, we just gotta get this work done.” But I think the contrarian view, or maybe the counterintuitive response is, “I do care about how you feel, and we need to get this thing done.
Christy: I wonder if we are losing a sense of curiosity about other people.
Kim Pong: Why do you think we are losing interest in curiosity? Why do you think we are not as interested in what’s going on around us, or what, what’s going on with the people around us, as we are more interested in going on within us?
Christy: I don’t know.
Christy: To your question about what’s happened to curiosity, I don’t know. In my world, I’ve seen still quite a bit of curiosity. I think people might be overwhelmed. I think the world is so volatile and so complex, and there’s so much ambiguity out there, and people are tired, and that perhaps it’s almost become a luxury to take extra time.
Christy: I don’t know, I’m thinking out loud here, to be perfectly honest with you. But it may be, has curiosity become a luxury for some, when it’s just like they just need to take care of what’s in front of them?
Kim Pong: I love what you said.
Curiosity as a Risk
Kim Pong: Maybe curiosity is a luxury. Now, the other perspective I have is that maybe curiosity is a risk.
Kim Pong: Mm, mm. That it’s risky to be curious. Ah.
Christy: Yeah, that is a really good point. Yeah. Maybe people have been burned. it’s like the cat only puts his paw on the burner one time, and then if you get burned, then… So if someone’s cut you down or dismissed you, or you haven’t felt, has shown no interest in hearing you or providing that space, in a sense, so extending a hospitable space, in a sense, to even showing that they’re interested in perhaps hearing the other person out.
Christy: Yeah. Maybe people just shut down. You’re right. I hear that. That’s actually a really good point. So then this podcast
Christy: Let’s just put this out here that we are going to be curious. We are going to explore topics that could bridge gaps. We’re going to, we’re gonna talk about things that perhaps haven’t been talked about that much, especially if we think about cross-cultures and guests from all over the world doing very different types of things.
Christy: So I think that the, the opportunities we have to be curious and extend ourselves to others and provide a safe space- Mm-hmm … where we can really unpack some of these really interesting topics and ideas provides an amazing opportunity, not just for you and me, but encourage them to go out and be a little more curious perhaps, or to take a risk next time.
Kim Pong: Yeah.
Christy: Take a risk and put the paw on the, putting their paw back on that stove and give it
Kim Pong: another try. Put it
Christy: back on. Yeah, put it back
Kim Pong: on. Put it back on. Yeah, I’m really excited. I’m really excited too about this podcast. We are not gonna get just experts or famous people. I mean, we’re gonna get them.
Kim Pong: It’s about real people, real conversations. We’re gonna get- Yep … super-duper amazing people to come into our conversations and talk about their super-duper conversations with people, and how that- Yep … affects their lives, how that change people around them, and about how conversations actually shapes our lives.
Kim Pong: A good friend of mine says, “Amazing things happen between people when the quality of the conversation-” Yeah … “is good.”
Christy: I would just say it’s not just to have long conversations and go down rabbit holes about conversation. It’s actually to help us all get better at it by hearing the stories of one another and the experiences of one another, and what we’ve experienced and learned, and to bring people in that are willing to get, get real and share their stories so that we can also be inspired by and learn from them.
Christy: Yeah. So I agree with you. I am over the moon. I’m just convinced that conversations are the invisible force that shape everything we do. I, sometimes I think I’m a darn good conversationalist, and I don’t think… I’m probably overrating myself. So I can’t wait to explore this a little bit more so I can also become better-
A Moment of Gratitude
Christy: Christy Davis, you are an amazing human being, and no, I’m, I’m stating-
Christy: what a very nice thing to say.
Kim Pong: Thank you very much. And you’re an amazing human being because from my perspective, every time when I’m talking to you- Mm … I just feel seen by you, Christy. You are not focused on what you wanna say, but you’re very much more focused on who you’re saying it to, and that’s me. And, I mean-
Christy: that’s such a nice thing to say.
Christy: How- I will pay you later for that. Thank you. I’ll send you the bill. I’ll send you the bill. But really, I think this human factor is about being seen, being loved, being welcome, being accepted, and the fact that when people begin to see you, oh my gosh, that’s the beginning of many great things to come
Christy: I just love what you just said, and it just reminded me, so I just grabbed something off of a bulletin board in my office here that is a piece of paper from, I’m gonna d- from…
Christy: It was from the Alaska Airlines magazine, January 1993. So no judgment from all of you Gen Zs and Alphas and whatever the heck you got, you youngsters are out- Yeah … and I’m sure this was before my time as well, and I just picked it up somewhere. But it’s an ad by a hotel chain, and it says…
Christy: “On time is better than late. Friendly is better than polite. Deeds are better than promises. Originals are better than copies.” And I think this is what we’re talking about here, the real thing. I think we’re talking auth- what this does mean, authenticity.
Christy: Yeah. It’s just authenticity, and I think even in work settings, we’re looking more and more, and maybe it’s because of the chaos of the world, are we looking for… This is a question I’m even asking myself. Am I looking for more authentic, meaningful connections with people? It doesn’t even have to be a deep relationship.
Kim Pong: yeah. I really love what you just shared on the advertisement, and the thing that really caught my attention was, “Originals are better than copies.” I really love that, because sometimes I think we live our lives as copies. Oh my gosh, and I gotta- Yeah … I gotta be as aggressive as the other person. I gotta be more assertive as the other individual.
Kim Pong: Yeah. So when we set up this podcast here where everything is conversation, I think it’s really about that. It’s about how do we see the originals in the world, appreciate the originals in the world, open up the lid and help people see the return on investment in being the original, the only one that you are capable of.
Christy: We have lots to look forward to.
Kim Pong: Yeah. So tell us, tell us, what’s happening in this season of our podcast.
Christy: Okay. So, oh,
This Season’s Topics
Christy: we’ve got some pretty cool people coming and joining us for some pretty cool topics. Basically, everything is around some aspect of conversation, topics like the conversation that changed everything, how to be heard in rooms that matter, the first five minutes reveal the leader, conversation in a world of AI, the moment I found my voice.
Kim Pong: I love
Christy: that. That’s actually, that is a, a very-
Kim Pong: I need that …
Christy: and I think we’ve done a great job at canvassing the world and, a really special thing is that our guests are from all over the world,
Christy: Gosh, their countries, their context, their backgrounds, so much is different about them all. So for me, it’s been quite a special experience to sit down with each one of them.
Kim Pong: I just love it
Christy: . So This is our kickoff To everyone listening out there, join us for this inaugural season of “Everything is Conversation.” Ah, Kim Pong, I’m just– I’m so excited to be doing this with you. I think back on those early days at, at Atlas Coffee, and it’s, it’s just like it’s real. It’s happening.
Christy: It’s a culmination of this dream, I’m over the moon. Thanks so much in advance, because I know we’re just, we’re gonna have a ball.
Closing Thoughts
Kim Pong: So yeah, looking forward to the future episodes that’s coming up. I’m really excited about the guests that’s coming in. Yep. I’m really excited about discovering about what is it that we do in our talk that makes our life a whole lot more richer, a whole lot more able, a whole lot more better .
Kim Pong: So with that, everything is conversation.
Christy: Everything is conversation.
